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NVDA not providing any useful access to OpenOffice/LibreOffice #2870
Comments
Comment 1 by ateu on 2012-12-14 14:33 I have installed java 6 in my system and there's not any problem both with OpenOffice 3.4.1 and libreoffice 3.5.7. |
Comment 2 by jteh on 2012-12-14 17:31 It's highly likely that JAWS is reading highlighted text via screen scraping. This would explain why it reads things strangely. |
Comment 3 by mwhapples on 2012-12-14 18:22 Has a bug report for this been filed against OpenOffice/LibreOffice? |
Comment 4 by jteh (in reply to comment 3) on 2012-12-14 18:43
That's assuming that hypothesis is correct. I don't know.
Not by us. We haven't really investigated the issue thoroughly, so don't have any useful information. Because of the accessibility issues/deficiencies in OOo/JAB (even when it was working), debugging this is low priority for us compared to other work. It'd be great if someone could confirm whether this is specific to Java 7. |
Comment 5 by mwhapples on 2012-12-14 20:40 I will also take a look on the appropriate bug trackers to see whether bugs have been posted against OpenOffice and LibreOffice. |
Comment 6 by mwhapples on 2012-12-19 10:52 I have tried the following situations: Having both Java6 and Java7 installed, if I select Java6 in the java options of OpenOffice then it is accessible, but if I select Java7 in the java options it is then not accessible. Should I just have Java6 installed then OpenOffice is accessible. Should I just have Java7 installed OpenOffice is not accessible. I have tried this on two computers, one being Windows7 32-bit and one being Windows7 64-bit, on both computers Java6 does seem to be the solution. I did not have much luck with LibreOffice 3.6, but I think I have seen other comments elsewhere indicating accessibility may just be broken there. Do the LibreOffice developers know about that? I do notice some other diffferences with Java accessibility between Java6 and Java7 when using other Java swing applications, however no change which breaks accessibility as significantly as this does. So may be there is bugs somewhere in Java/Java access bridge causing this, but I doubt that alone could cause as many changes as I notice with OpenOffice. So I will file a bug report with OpenOffice on this. |
Comment 7 by jteh (in reply to comment 6) on 2012-12-26 02:30
Thanks for confirming this. The !LibreOffice developer community seems to disagree (see this FAQ and this ticket comment). I'll have to try setting the recommended environment variables. I don't know why this should make a difference for JRE 7 when it doesn't matter for JRE 6, especially on a 32 bit system, but it's worth trying anyway.
They do (see this bug report). What version did you test with? According to this FAQ, this is fixed in 3.6.4, which was released early this month. |
Comment 8 by vsfoote on 2012-12-26 23:29 Current releases of LibreOffice 3.5.7 and 3.6.4.3, as well as Apache OpenOffice 3.4.1 will expose UNO Accessibility API roles to Java Accessibility API via the Java Access Bridge of Java Runtime Environment 1.6u37 or 1.7u9 When users who have had JRE 1.6 installed and then install JRE 1.7, their per-user configurations for LibreOffice or OpenOffice will need to be modified. I prefer to delete the entire Office profile and allow it to be rebuilt by deleting these folders from the users %APPDATA% folder: For example these for a Windows Vista/7/8 user: (Note: slight path differences for users of Windows XP) Alternatively, to delete the specific Office configuration file, that would be: C:\Users\AppData\Roaming\LibreOffice\3\user\config\javasettings_Windows_x86.xml or C:\Users\AppData\Roaming\OpenOffice\3\user\config\javasettings_Windows_x86.xml Activate Java Access Bridge (v2.0.2 with JRE 1.6 or v2.0.3 with JRE 1.7). With NVDA already running, launch of LibreOffice or OpenOffice you need to hear announcement of "Document View" -- if you can not navigate down into the document to get to that location the session will need to be restarted. The IBM Lotus Symphony suite (last IBM built version is 3.0.1 with two patch bundles released) was converted to use IAccessible2 based roles and so does not have the overhead and poor performance of the Java Accessibility API AT. The Apache OpenOffice project is working on integrating the IBM contributed Symphony IAccessible2 code base into the 4.x release of OpenOffice. The LibreOffice developers may also adopt that, or may independently develop a Windows native bridge implementing the UNO Accessibility API in a fashion similar to native bridges used for Apple OSX NSaccessibility and Linux ATK, AT-SPI (GNOME Desktop) bridge. But it is not clear exactly how that would proceed for providing Windows AT. |
Comment 9 by mwhapples (in reply to comment 7) on 2012-12-28 07:44 Yes I had been trying with LibreOffice 3.6.3, so I am about to upgrade to 3.6.4 which is meant to be accessible. However, the issues I had with Apache OpenOffice 3.4.1 with Java7, even on a 32-bit system, means I do not really hold much hope for the Java7 stuff working. Interesting to see the mentions of upgrading from Java6 to Java7, however I am fairly certain the 32-bit system I tried it on never had Java6 installed, IE. it only had Java7 until I started this more thorough testing to investigate what is going on. Regardless of what I find, this simply tells me the accessibility support of OpenOffice/LibreOffice through Java is fragile at best and the IAccessible2 support in OpenOffice cannot come soon enough. Should the company I work for decide to push forward with powering the software suite with OpenOffice I will just be glad I am not in the support team and having to support this current situation.
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Comment 10 by jteh on 2012-12-28 08:12 |
Comment 11 by mwhapples on 2012-12-28 08:16 Here is such a test case (using NVDA) which shows one difference:
Expected: The button which gets focus will be spoken. As the above case is fairly core to using an office suite and it affects other dialogs when a user tabs between controls (eg. in the options dialog I can only get the categories tree view spoken, tabbing in options does not speak), I could not classify accessibility of OpenOffice/LibreOffice as useful when using Java7. |
Comment 12 by mwhapples (in reply to comment 10) on 2012-12-28 10:09
The test case I documented in comment #11 also seems to be holding for Jaws, Jaws while identifying certain control types like menubar, it does not speak controls which get focus when pressing tab in dialog boxes, when the used JRE is Java7. Using Java6 seems to work fine. It is worth noting that I have also observed some changes between Java access bridge behaviour on Java6 and Java7 when using a pure Java swing application, so it does not surprise me that differences may occur for OpenOffice/LibreOffice. VSFoot: Could you try the test case I have given in comment #11, as I have noted, yes the Java access bridge is being initialised correctly but there are too many cases where things just don't work to make it even possible to consider as a viable accessible solution (eg. if you do not know what control has got focus how can you interact with the simplest question dialogs). |
Comment 13 by vsfoote on 2012-12-29 00:17 I can '''confirm''' the test case behavior of the save--Alert event--dialog not gaining focus for audible rendering by NVDA under JRE 1.7. The JRE 1.6 does sound the role Name of each exposed push button object. Viewing the events in 32-bit JavaMonkey shows the JAB delivered accessibility roles to be identical. As is the non-sounding Alert object of the test case. They just do not sound under JRE 1.7 with NVDA. I am not able to test a Jaws installation. |
Comment 14 by jteh on 2013-01-03 23:49 |
Comment 15 by jteh on 2013-11-08 01:40 |
Comment 16 by vsfoote (in reply to comment 15) on 2013-11-08 02:34
Yes, Java 7 introduced a few API changes that both LO and AOO had to correct for. David Ostrovsky fixed it first on the LO side at 4.0.5 release, and then ported it to the AOO side in time for the 4.0.0 release. Here are the respective BZ issues for both projects: |
Reported by mwhapples on 2012-12-14 13:30
When I use NVDA with OpenOffice 3.4.1 or LibreOffice 3.6.1 (in both cases I am trying to use writer but I have no reason to believe its writer specific) it provides no useful feedback. As an example it does not speak the menus, it does not speak when tabbing around the options dialog, it does not speak document content when cursoring around the document, etc. There are some things which NVDA does speak, one example being when in the options dialog pressing up/down in the tree view of categories does speak the category one moves to.
I have ensured accessibility support is turned on in both LibreOffice and OpenOffice (I have had a sighted person check, I have tried applying the OpenOffice patch for the registry from the NVDA wiki, in the case of LibreOffice I ensured I check the accessibility support check box in the installer).
I have ensured correct functioning of Java accessibility with NVDA, I have run a Java swing application and that was perfectly accessible. I did get a sighted person to check that LibreOffice and OpenOffice were using my installed JRE.
I have noticed that when in OpenOffice or LibreOffice NVDA while observing the text which is in the window, it only presents the text as a single object in NVDAA's object navigation (IE. other than the standard close/maximise/minimise buttons, NVDA sees these windows as a single object).
I have reproduced this issue on multiple computers. I personally have had this on both a 32-bit Windows 7 computer and a Windows 7 64-bit system and both are just as inaccessible when trying to use OpenOffice or LibreOffice. Also someone else within the company I work for reports similar issues with NVDA and OpenOffice, although I cannot speak for whether he has Java accessibility set up correct. However he does report similar reports with OpenOffice and Jaws as I observe when using OpenOffice and Jaws on my own computer (while quite limited is still better than what NVDA is giving us, it seems to speak menus in a sort of way, will speak document content and while not speaking when tabbing in dialogs it does seem to update it on Braille).
I have observed these problems with NVDA 2012.3.1 and daily builds (currently last tried it with main-5691).
I will sometime soon arrange attaching a log, but it probably will not be until later today.
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